Talk:Shadow Form

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Contents 1 Confirmed change of SF this year 2 Just to clarify 3 Maintaining & Counters 4 "All But 53hp" 5 Possible Change? 6 Stop QQ'in about SF 7 The Backbone of the Game

[edit] Confirmed change of SF this year

Just look up to Anet Official Twitter-- Daedalus93 11:14, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

It's pretty vague, I wouldn't get your shorts in a bunch yet. -- Wyn talk 11:15, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

That could just mean they're planning on doing a whole lot of farming. :P -- FreedomBound 11:33, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Aye? I wanna see all permas crying when this happens (not sure if it'll). But they'll do something because anywhere you go, you see lots of sins, Anet doesn't want that the game dominated by sins - solution: change the skill. What's the fun of being invincible and farm - moreover almost do anything with perma. I admit that I've tried perma and it was really boring. Sorry guys but I hope this ends :p It's destroying GW economy. Daedalus93 11:41, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Wow! finaly after a year+ of SF exploit they decided to take action! M3G 11:45, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I wish they keep shadow form. Great skill, everybody apart from a small lot of zzzwhiners love it, anet shouldnt listen to zzzwhiners because they ruin the game. --Super Igor 12:13, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

If it can make the game balanced again and take back the class tank to those elite areas, then I'm proud to be called zzwhiner ^_^ M3G 12:37, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

You really think that just nerfing Shadow Form would balance the game? Get real, it would only make the game more boring. --Super Igor 13:17, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Certainly not balance the whole game at all. However you wouldn't see outpost (ToA comes to my mind) populated with 90% of Sins anymore. Come on, these places are just farm fest not elite areas. It ain't fun for people not playing sin class. M3G 13:33, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

ToA will be like DoA, empty, almost deserted. I dont approve of it. ----The preceding signed comment was added by User:Super Igor (talk). 13:35, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't know for DoA, but ToA was never a desert place before and won't be after SF's nerf. M3G 13:38, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

SF nerf would only make the game even more boring. ----The preceding signed comment was added by User:Super Igor (talk). 14:13, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

U only say that because you make much money with it. But tell me sincerely. Now in game 70% of the people are sins. Anet will do something this I'm sure and it won't unbalance the game. You still have dervishes for farm, Eles, Rit, Monks, Necros - but a sin with a invincible skill it's not even fun. Daedalus93 15:55, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Igor, please don't bother trying to comment on balance, PvE or PvP. You are defending a skill that provides invincibility. Your opinion is completely invalid, and moreover, it proves you don't understand even the bare beginnings of balance. —Jette 20:16, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Should of never nerfed Ursan. It allowed people to actually play the game on any character without using niche builds. For a non-monthly subscription game why is ANet trying to take up more server space by making farming take longer. Making SpeedClears obsolete seems like a good business model for a Pay-to-Play game. How about letting us store more than 100 platinum and improving the economy. If SF is nerfed the usage of Consumable sets will drop off the table. Making public sale of ConSets a dead market. Thus taking Bones, Iron, Feathers, Essence, Grail, Armor of Salvation all off the market. GW already has an economy that looks similar to a desolate island. There are only a handful of items people need, and what people want is to get off the island. Look to EvE for ideas on creating a more dynamic economy. No supply chain is necessary. But making Gold actually valuable as a trade item would help. Since there is no value in the currency people buy ectos that are useless to be honest and have no market value. It is like buying Tupperware in real life because your bank account only holds $100 dollars, and somehow the community decided to store their value of money in Tupperware. Sometimes people need Tupperware so you can sell it. But there are thousands of people farming Tupperware from the UnderWorld. People's fortunes are determined by the rare material trader that says the Tupperware is worth a certain amount. This isn't even the market value since the rare material trader has a floor price set. I never liked the SF builds as they bred people who thought rolling their faces on a keyboard made them good players. But even more people will quit this game such as they do after every PvE farming nerf (ie. Ursanway, RoJ, Cry, Etc, Etc). If this is the goal to make people stop and save server space this way. Then actually that is a good idea. Let's face it nerfing RoJ was great. What was even better was the fact that W/Mo players can't 123451234512345 in FoW on a W/A Hundred Blades Bar. Just shows how stupid people really are, and Anet shouldn't keep stating they want people to be able to play this game casually in pick up groups as pugs but ignore the stupidity of people. On a side note lag on American servers is almost unbearable now, especially when euro idiots complain about lagging with 50 ping. 69.230.197.167

So is this a mistake? I don't understand how good an economy of a game could be. I've been on Guild Wars two years and an half. And only reached 100k (I've school so no real deal here). But the times I've played,(considerably) I couldn't have pass from the mark of 15k normal PvEing. Anet should look for a way to balance the game, economy - PvE. Not only for farming. IS THE ONLY WAY TO GET OBBY OR ANOTHER ELITE ARMOUR THROUGH FARMING? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Daedalus93 (talk).

all you ppl crying about SF are crying because you suck at farming with it,admit it.

No, we're crying about it because I fucked your mom. —Jette 14:41, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

@69.230.197.167: I really like your Tupperware analogy! haha so true! I am not now, or ever again, going to play with PuGs, as I can not get over their stupidity. I did that in Prophecies, and it took forever to finish the game. I didn't even get Factions until after I had Nightfall, because the heroes made a huge difference. Does Anet really think I wouldn't remember that? FloppyJoe 18:05, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

@Daedalus93: I go to college and I work, and in my free time I play GW. Even with that, I make money just playing the game. Just going through a mission will net me like 1-2k from picking up money and selling the drops. And, doing quests will do about the same. However, I have made a really good amount of money farming. A few weeks ago, I made 40k in like an hour (or less) of farming. IMO, farming is terribly boring, but with money like that coming in, it's worth doing every once in awhile. Also, I use a war or a rt to farm with, not a perma, so nerf away. I just find it nice to hire a perma runner to clear some stuff for me, rather than spending forever on a mission or quest that I've completed 3 times before on other characters. FloppyJoe 18:05, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Just to clarify

Anyone who thinks that Shadow Form is the problem is hereby declared an effing retard with no game mechanic insight at all. The problem seriously is the working together of shadowform with certain other skills and the lack of removal skills in elite areas.
Nerfing shadow form would destroy yet another skill that will never ever see use again. BUT nerfing just ONE TINY THING regarding the other skills or the environments, that gives shadowform a place to stay, for actually fighting in parties the normal way or for running to areas.
Breaking shadow form's maintainability = break shadow form.
Breaking farming capabilities under Shadow Form = better attempt
There are seriously a million ways to break SF farming. Seriously, I could list 1 MEGABYTE of pure text here with ways to break SF-farming without nerfing SF's maintainability.

• Make sliver armor actually hit a random target = boss green farming dead
• Make SF disable all your spells for 15 seconds
• Add Signet of Disenchantment to the 4 Horsemen
• Add any PBAoE to Dryders
• Add any form of selfhealing to important quest marks
• Give Aatxe a weak Healing Signet (counters chamber build)
• Give Obsidian Behemoths troll unguent or Tranquility(nature ritual)
• Add a monster-skill "Target loses shadowform" to elite areas like UW, FoW, Slaver's Exile, etc. It's their game, they can code anything they want. (even scalable Knockdowns)
• ...you get the idea

As it is now, UWSC *does* take a bit of skill, have you seen how many PUGs fail? Mountains is a pretty hard area already. UWSC really barely works by a perfect working together of perfect thought-out builds in a perfect environment. Changing even one little thing will break UWSC without breaking Shadow Form.
But why do you think nothing happened yet? Because ANet made a mistake by introducing speed clears in their current form. ANet knows about their customer base, and what will happen if they nerf the farms. Countless speed clear guilds have formed, which would break apart, people would get pissed off and leave and NOT buy GW2. This is not what they want. --62.158.82.190 16:59, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

diaf —Jette 17:04, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

i dont even see reason why shadow form should be "Immortality" skill they could just change shadow forms functionality totally and if shadow form would be totally changed so what ? there is many other builds to go with. This is just like that ursan shiz. 89.166.101.7 21:38, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

You're not allowed to claim that a skill which grants 100% invincibility, has no counters, and is permanently maintainable is anywhere in the same universe as balanced. ~Shard 04:49, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Great post. Too bad the above posters didn't actually take the time to read it. 69.129.205.198 16:21, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Too bad it's not the place for it. -- Wyn talk 16:23, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I did bother to read it. It combines bad logic, no understanding of game balance and a ponderous writing style that prevents the point being conveyed effectively. It also lacks common sense, as nerfing shadow form requires exactly 5 seconds in notepad, whereas all of the other changes requires at least 20-30 seconds in notepad, with most of them scaling up to several hours rather quickly. And as Wyn said, this isn't the place for it; this is the place for discussing A) the mechanics of the shadow form skill (i.e. "does it reduce damage by 33.333...% or 34%?") or B) the Shadow Form article (i.e. "is mist form really related? It doesn't really make attacks miss"). Bitching about updates belongs at Talk:Game updates/20090917. —Jette 16:40, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

THe counter to Shadow Form would be shouts, chants, and AOE spirits. If those skills are developed effectively rangers, Paragons, warriors, monks, and rits would all be able to counter perma while still leaving perma as a valid character. The problem with perma is that a team of them can take out just about anything. Thats not what the game is supposed to do nor what an assassin should be used for. I say leave perma alone, give them back their 50% damage and beef up the shouts, chants, and aoe spirits to counter it. This way permas can still be valid but will need the help of others to do high level missions. Give a monk something to counter the new counters or a ranger for that matter. Keep it off the mes or ele. Give warriors a shout that will affect adjacent to keep the assassin from being a tank (Which IMO should never happen). Make the perma need the help of others to accomplish what needs to be accomplished and you now have a useful skill bar that is not completely immune. Ohh and if you give em back their 50% damage please make it read "Spells do 50% less damage" or whatever to make it attacks only.

This game was meant to include all professions not exclude them from high level areas. Which all the complaining about perma is from. Its not that permas are too overpowered its that if you like playing any other profession besides necro, you are screwed. So make permas need to rely on teammates of other professions to some degree and now you have inclusion and happy campers all around. The perma still gets to do their job, just not without the help of other professions -Ideas 11:59, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Oi, not exactly true. Only SoO requires a full sin party, for everything else more professions are involved with a spot for a leech. For example almost every profession can do vale support in UW, Monk can very quickly clear mounts. Kathy, Rragar, Boggies speedclears rely on other professions to be effective, in Urgoz and Deep perma needs support from other non-perma character to stay alive/kill. I only reply to the last bit. I think positive. :D -- Nectarines 12:39, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Well I was thinking making them more dependent than they currently are. Mainly to lessen the amount of permas that are in the game. What fun is a game that everyone plays the same profession? -Ideas 22:02, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually Shard is so blatantly wrong it's painful. Exagerating things completely. Your three super bolded points that should be taken as correct because my name is Shard dur are so incredibly wrong it makes you look like a fool the way you treat people who disagree about anything with you. 100% Invincibility, no counters, you sound so adept at this game yourself /lawlvomit. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 17:47, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

You are right. Shadow Form is fine. Teams of 7 or 8 sins running the same elite, or single sins running HM dungeons where you normally would bring a whole group just show that people playing Assassins are just very skillful players. 91.34.73.33 23:55, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

shadow form should be nerf imo or atleast make other class equal or add more mob that make shadow form more harder to use...I mean i use shadow form to on my sin but when im on my other class they get left out from uw so i end up doing it on my sin all the time so please nerf shadow form

[edit] Maintaining & Counters

I think it is cluttering the page up, perhaps move to to notes and decrease their size? Or any other suggestions? C4K3 Talk 21:34, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Are you actually discussing the article on the talk page? I'm sorry, I think you have us confused with Wikipedia. At GWW, we just whine on talk pages. —Jette 00:23, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Cluttering usually suggests an obscuring of information. Can I ask exactly what is being obscured in this case? Misery 00:32, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

The maintaining section really doesn't need to be there, since there's a full sub-page. The counters, I don't really have a problem with, unless you also wanted to move it to a sub-page. -- FreedomBound 00:39, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

@Jette lol @Misery the general page, it's to long for people to bother reading it all. @Freedom Bound I think it looks good the way it is now C4K3 Talk 16:58, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] "All But 53hp"

I was trying to figure out if what would happen if you were below 53hp if it would actually heal you, and using burning speed and a 60% dp, figured out that it does not, worth noting? 76.250.193.135 00:49, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

No, as it says "lose," not "are set to." —Jette 00:56, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Jette means to say that part of the skill only does something if you're above the given amount. If your health is at 1 when it ends, nothing will happen. ~Shard 01:07, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

What they said. :D Nectarines 12:27, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Possible Change?

I've been thinking this for a while and it is not new news that SF WILL BE changed at some point in the future. Whether it is related directly to SF or the skills that works with it that is debatable. However, I want to propose this as a possible change and didn't know where to get it in public view. The problem with SF is not the "All spells fail" becuase other elitse also have this same ability (SB/VoS/OF) with similar maintainablility. All attacks miss is what makes SF incredible, ecspecially considering that you can easily ignore the setback of lossing all but xx hp when it ends. Now what if instead of all attacks miss, all attacks have a 90% chance to miss. This would be same effects as having blind opponents which I think is a perfect match for this skill. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.101.182.120 (talk • contribs) at 19:25, 27 September 2009 (UTC).

actually this and SB are unique in the fail department, VOS and the other's wont let you be the target of spells which is a big difference. Roflmaomgz 01:41, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

You can and are encouraged to create an account and to create a personal suggestion page -- although in my personaly opinion I think it's pointless because arenanet have stated that they will leave shadow form alone C4K3 Talk 19:32, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

That was in june, if you looked at their twitter post in september, they said they vowed to change shadow form before the end of the year. 96.241.59.60 02:39, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

According to a post made today by Linsey: "We are not completely opposed to "nerfing" SF. Once we have the Test Krewe in place, we can think about trying some stuff out." --Silver Edge 09:04, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

They vowed to impact UWSCing via shadowform. If i remember I think they were trying to make it fairly clear that they didn't want to try to impact the skill itself, because that method has been proven lack-luster over and over again (see: Unlimited Meta-Shift Works). But now we have some insinuation of SF changes coming once the Test Krewe is in place. Don't hold your breath on anything major. This skill has already been nerfed a few times since Factions release. Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ аІiсә ѕνәи Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 18:50, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

From Regina's latest journal entry concerning the update that added Dhuum to the Underworld: "This was not an attempt to address all of the concerns about Shadow Form Assassins. That will happen in the next major skill update, which will include big changes to Shadow Form and may also include changes to other prominent farming skills." --Silver Edge 04:18, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Stop QQ'in about SF

The perma build is not invincible mode. Their are plenty of monster skills that bypass SF to deal damage/degen. Most of the QQ'in bout it is coming from farmers who cant sell their precious ectos at higher cost (it is after all a fantasy economy and a game). If you really want to have SF nerfed to the point making it unviable for tanking/farming. I have a proposal for you, lets make the recharge on Protective Spirit 45 seconds. That would kill 2 monk solo farming builds in one shot. Theres allready alot of Mo/Me around, whats wrong with having to tote around Arcane Echo in your skill bar all the time, sure you might have to sacrifice a damage dealing skill.... After all, you don't see this kind of complaining about the monk farmers, noone wants to see their monks nerfed. 67.185.81.197 15:00, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Permanent invincibility is a BAD GAME MECHANIC. End of story. I don't care if it's a monk doing it or an assassin. It needs to be nerfed. Standing there indignant going "But he did it too!! QQ" Does not make it an acceptable game mechanic, it just means that Anet has failed /more than once/ to properly address a broken system. I will be happy when entire outposts are no longer filled with the same sin gimmick build, when dungeons are not speed cleared by entire assassin teams all running the same build, or when they are not speed cleared by a duo monk/smiter team. The only reason you're QQing is because you probably spend all your time using the same exact sin build as everyone else doing the same exact speed clears and dungeon runs as everyone else. You just don't want your gravy train to end.65.207.54.194 15:19, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually, when I tank with my sin, Flashing Blades is what I use. I don't agree with speed builds either or the perma builds. I have used SF just as a skill not as a build on occasion for some of the more difficult HM encounters. I'll take the death penalty over a party wipe any day. And as far as farming goes, I don't see the point in it. I'll get the armor, gloves, etc. eventually, don't have to have it today. Now as to what has been stated previously, perma builds DO NOT grant invincibility to the sin. Alot of PvE monsters in higher areas have what are called "monster skills," which BYPASS SF allowing them to still damage/degen the sin. That is how SF has allready been balanced in PvE, the counter to them is allready in place. 67.185.81.197 15:51, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

If monster skills are the only thing giving you trouble the skill is overpowered... Take the sin to its intent... quick in and out chains... flashing blades is fine cause its only good vs attacks... I'm even fine with temporary invunerability of shadowform... soon as its 100% maintained its a bad idea and it breaks area's and teamwork... MrPaladin † talk 15:58, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I completely agree MrPaladin. SF should not be 100% maintainable. I've been playing mine since before Nightfall, and I like the class because of its high burst damage. I've seen them get nerfed quite a bit over these last few years and I really don't want my Oh S**t skill to dissapear. In my opinion what needs to be done is to nerf Deadly Paradox where it would read "Stance. All of your attack Skills are disabled for 10 seconds. For 5...13...15 seconds, your Assassin non-elite Skills activate and recharge 33% faster." Which would still hold the viability of SF for tanking but destroy its maintainability. Now back to my original point about all the QQ'in of SF. Why is no one complaining about the 55 or 600 builds which would still be highly viable solo builds for farming after SF is nerfed. When SF gets nerfed ALL solo farming builds should be nerfed with it. After all, you dont need SF to solo farm, it's just a easy target to blame for over farming. 67.185.81.197 16:33, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Why can't shadow form Guild Wars be turned into a usable, balanced skill game instead of this gimmicky, imbalanced crap it is now? –Jette 00:32, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Hate to say it but 600 is not a solo farm build. you have to have another person/hero to do the damage--Spicy was hot wing 23:06, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

The difference between one and two people is not that great. You're still bypassing the intended 8-player-team mechanic that the game was designed with in mind. Especially if you do it with a hero. The point being made here is that people should not be able to easily do with 1-2 highly imbalanced skillbars what 8 balanced (and still powerful) ones struggle with. Permanent invincibility is not a good game mechanic - ever - be it 600/Smite or Perma SF. Admittedly it's fun, every so often; but it ruins the fun of everyone who wants to play balanced in an MMORPG when nobody will take anything else. --70.158.147.133 23:19, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I have a perma, but I only use him occaisonally, usually just to help out friends with things like running. I believe that an effective way to nerf perma would be to have a very fast recharge, and be a skill, but there is an effect that says it is disabled for like 45 seconds. That way it is not maintainable due to the disabling time, and the fact that arcane echo and all the other methods dont work because it is a skill, not a spell. It would then remain a very effective tanking skill, yet not be maintainable.The Orlando 00:34, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind that at all, though I liked a suggestion I saw in the Feedback portal better. It went something like "For x seconds you become invisible to your enemies. Ends early if you attack or cast a spell on an enemy." (For PvE only, of course.) It changes the function, but allows Assassins to perform like the ninjas everyone thought they were going to be at first: sneak in unnoticed, take out an enemy or two, and sneak back out with something akin to Death's Retreat or Heart of Shadow. I would personally use this skill a lot more if that's how it operated. It's simply more usable and practical than being invulnerable for a short while and losing nearly all your health, and more reasonable than maintainable invincibility. I don't think your idea would be too bad, though. --[ Kyoshi ]::[ Talk ] 04:32, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Shadow Form: for 10 seconds you move ∞% faster but take g64% more damage. –Jette 04:52, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

You realize that you can still do a full plains run with only PBAoE skills... "Ends early if you attack or cast a spell on an enemy" doesn't work. 75.175.21.24 05:06, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Then make it whenever you deal damage to an enemy? Oh, right. Make it disable itself for an amount of time, if nothing else, so it can't be permanently maintained. (Y'know, you could suggest additions instead of just nagging about what I left out.) --[ Kyoshi ]::[ Talk ] 09:41, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

How about we just change it entirely and make it do something along the lines of: 10 45 Elite Skill. For 6...36 seconds, all attack damage is converted to life stealing.

Makes it an interesting skill that helps counteract the Assassin's innate squishiness, but only in combat. Wouldn't be even remotely balanced for PvP, and probably not even so for PvE, but my point's that the skill ought to be changed completely and avoid any sort of "invulnerability" idea. ··· Danny Pew Pew

I'm in support of this the most. Also, stop QQ'ing about QQ'ing about SF (not you Danny <3) :> ---Chaos- (talk) -- 07:27, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Change the skill to function like derv avatars, still powerfull yet not maintainable, which is the main reason the skill is broken. On top of that all the QQ'ing farmers that wil turn on their waterworks the moment SF gets nerfed (lulz, anet actually doing something properly) will have a fancy new character model to drool over and they could change.....

DISREGARD THAT I SUCK C..... bad balance team is bad , anet wil be anet217.231.98.108 19:50, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] The Backbone of the Game

Everyone is shouting and ranting about Shadow Form being maintainable, and all these Speed Clears and solo farming ruining the balance of the game. Well just FYI, Shadow Form is not ruining the balance of the game, it is keeping it balanced. If they nerf shadow form completely, the games economy will crash.

These permas have been in the game to long to take them back. Everything in the game (besides discontinues) used to be at a steady price range, which was slowly declining. When Anet started the hints at nerfing shadow form, the economy began to go into wack. When they made the skeletons permanent, all hell broke loose.

This game doesn't run on Gold Coins or Platinum. 97% of the game runs on Ectos. Once permas were introduced, Ectos began to slowly decrease, bottoming out at 4kish. The hints of nerfing began, prices began to rise, they reached 5k within a few weeks, and it took months or so lower ectos down that much. This began a mad ecto frenzy, people refused to sell ectos because of the hinting of nerfing and the insane inflation to follow. So once the skeletons became permanent, ectos inflated like crazy! 5k to 7.5k within a day! On the lower scale, this doesn't seem to change much, but since rare weapons and minipets that go over 100k are priced in ectos depend on a steady currency, this screwed everything up. With ectos rising and prices fluctuating, it was hard to sell or buy anything rare during this period. 23 ectos became 16 ectos, and people refused to cooperate. Everything was Chaos. Things began to calm down, and people found ways around the skeletons. Now that Anet has placed Dhuum i the UW, it has increased intrest, lowering ectos back to normal range. All of this has to do with the practice of permaing in the UW and solo farming. Who knew that such practice could screw things up so much.

So now that things are a little higher than normal and relatively stable, things are okay. But now we got people saying they will completely nerf shadow form. If they do, all hell will break loose again. Permas ARE EVERYWHERE! In the daily life of a Guild Wars player, they do runs, they do main tanking for things, they do speedbooks, they run dungeons, they Speed Clear and solo farm areas and greens. All these money making opportunities will be GONE, if they nerf Shadow Form. Making a perma isn't that hard, anyone can do it if they have the character slot, time and about 15k. Permas are NEEDED in Guild Wars Today.

Permas are the Connection between the Rich and Poor. If they nerf Shadow Form, the poor will stay poor and the Rich will only get richer. With all rare weapon farms as a major source of income for the poor (SoOSC, BogSC etc...) nerfing Shadow Form will only remove that ability, and for those who are rich with these rare weapons, the weapons will become rarer, and will increase in price. Permas MUST stay in the game to keep the middle class ALIVE! The lucky poor guys who catch their break become this middle class with permas. Permas are the backbone of the guild wars balance.

Guild Wars depends on Permas, whether you know it or not. In a perfect world, there would be no wealthy or poor, just the common man who has the same amount of money as the next guy. But that is no fun. The motive of the guild wars player is to be better than the next guy. A complete balance would be horrible, but a untouchable wealthy elite will wreck everything. Give permas a chance. Yes Guild wars isn’t for solo farming, but grinding feathers for cash isn’t right either. Permas nowadays aren’t soloing things for cash, but for helpful items, or they are in a team as a tank or something.

I personally place a stamp on permas. DO NOT DELETE--68.115.108.135 05:22, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

They just need to take ability to dmg while using shadow form that 33% should be 100% , godly tanks should not be able to do dmg. 89.166.101.7 05:38, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Lol. What I got out of that upon tl;dr:ing is that you want people who don't deserve cash to be rich, and people who actually earn it to be meaningless. ---Chaos- (talk) -- 08:47, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

"This game doesn't run on Gold Coins or Platinum. 97% of the game runs on Ectos" 5/10, I raged. NuVII 09:30, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Quite a good troll. 6/10 I'd say. -Auron 09:45, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Personnaly I don't care if rich will get richer. Once they will have everything they want they will get bored and leave GW. What I would like is other class being used once again. Not being forced to use perma sin or then being left out. M3G 09:51, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

^ IP hit the nail on the head. Even when new WoW raids come out and they're hard as balls, any class can tank, heal or DPS it. The raids aren't reduced to "warriors only everyone else can fuck off thanks ^^" which is what UW has become - and honestly, what DoA was, too. Balanced builds have never worked in DoA because it was designed like shit. I preferred a physical heavy with paragons for defense-type build, but while that can resemble balanced, it was basically just another gimmick. ArenaNet needs to make the elite areas hard, but still beatable by a balanced group (1 mes, 1 necro, 1 war, 1 para, 1 rit, etc), and eliminate this "6 sin" bullshit.

P.S. nerf shadow form. -Auron 09:54, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I actually read through it now. "Everything was Chaos." ... Is this bad? D: ---Chaos- (talk) -- 12:07, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

In reality, I find rits the fastest and strongest solo farmers. But hey whos complaining..... --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.115.108.135 (talk).

enter dhuum? also, the problem isn't so much that SF is broken as much as it is that a bunch of life-lacking basement-dwellers sit around farming UW at every chance they have. SF wouldn't be a problem if people had social lives. :> ··· Danny Pew Pew 23:44, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

That's like saying chemical warfare wouldn't be a problem if people didn't want to kill each other. It's technically true, except it doesn't apply to reality. --NuVII 00:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)